Tag Archives: Money

Fixing the Mistakes Made by Hiring Cheap Writers

euro-870757_640I’ve lost count of the number of times somebody has approached me about my writing services. They complain that they hired somebody to do this work already but, well, it was awful and now they need someone to fix it or to start again from scratch.

Invariably, they paid that person around $5 for 500 – 1,000 words and the content they show me is an unmitigated disaster.

So, they hire me. I do the work they need, and they pay me. They’ve paid out twice for writers when, if they’d only bitten the bullet and paid fair fees in the first place, they would have saved themselves both money and time, all the while reducing their stress levels as an added bonus.

Those of us who charge higher rates do so because we are confident that the additional training and experience we have gained over years of full-time freelancing make the extra £££s worth paying. We’ve navigated our way around many different types and formats of writing, and we’ve negotiated the most weird and wonderful content requirements with a range of clients.

So if you pay cheap writers on Fiverr for an SEO-optimised article, you will get 500 words that do, indeed, contain your target keywords. But – most frequently – you won’t get much more than that. How on earth can they really take the time to research your topic if they have a matter of minutes to write your blog posts (they need to submit a large number of posts per hour / day to get a decent amount of pay to go home with)? How can they possibly proofread your work when they have 30 more articles to write today? How can any of those articles have the unique, special touch you are so keen to display in your content?

I feel confident in the fees I charge because I know I deliver great value to businesses and editors who are looking for insightful, unique, well-informed and engaging work. The effect this will have on a business’s customer engagement cannot be overestimated.

Episode 25: Why and How to Charge More For Your Freelance Writing

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This solo episode by Lorrie is the third in our series of three podcast episodes about money. In episode 23, I talked about how to set your freelance writing rates, and in episode 24 we discussed the practicalities of things like invoicing, chasing clients and setting payment terms. So today, Lorrie talks about under what circumstances you should consider raising your rates, and exactly how to go about it.

Show Notes

The Key to Creating More Remarkable Connections

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Transcript

 

Hello, and welcome to Episode 25 of A Little Bird Told Me: the podcast about the highs, the lows, and the no-nos of successful freelance writing.

 

You can find us on the web at alittlebirdtoldme.podomatic.com, and there you can subscribe to the podcast in any number of ways, including RSS, iTunes, Stitcher Smart Radio or on the Podomatic page itself. You can also find the link to our Facebook page, where there will be plenty of tips, tricks and topics – that gets easier to say every time! – to enjoy. And you can also find links to my websites and social media feeds, as well as those of my lovely co-host Philippa.

I’m Lorrie Hartshorn and today’s episode is another solo effort. As I speak, the lovely Pip is probably out and about, doing something unimaginably exciting but fear not, she’ll be back with me next week for another dual episode. For now, listeners, it’s just me and thee.

GBP Fluorescence

GBP Fluorescence (Photo credit: kevincollins123)

Today’s topic is the third and final of our money-oriented episodes. If you’ve not listened to them in order, I’d definitely recommend you go back and have a listen – we started out with Pip’s solo episode, 23, in which she discussed how to decide what to charge – basically, how to come up with a decent pricing strategy for your work.

Then, in our last episode, we discussed how to go about actually getting paid – things like how to send an invoice, whether to go for pre-payment, how long to give someone to pay – the sorts of things you don’t really know, naturally – and it’s best not to pluck these things out of the air. We tried to take these things in a logical order, you see – deciding what to get paid, learning how to get paid and, now, what to do when you want to get paid more! This is generally the order it’ll happen in in real life as well, so no need to thank us – just realise that we do think about these things in a bid to give you the best advice possible!

When you’re starting out as a freelance copywriter, editor, proof-reader, anything really, it can be baffling when you try and decide what to charge. You see top end copywriters charging, say $500 an hour, then there are those people (I use the term loosely!) who inhabit the slimy bottom layer of freelance sites like Elance, charging ridiculously low prices. If you’ve listened to our previous podcast episode, you’ll know this is a particular bugbear of mine. The lowest I’ve seen – and this was a genuine offer with several very enthusiastic takers – was 15p (that’s 15p UK!) per 500-word article. So when I say that freelancing rates for copywriters vary, I really, really do mean it!

But, because Pip already covered how to devise a pricing strategy in her last solo episode, I’m not going to cover that again. What I want to deal with is just how to go about upping your rates.

So, first of all, why increase your rates?

There might be a number of reasons you might increase your rates.

– You might have been charging too little in the first place (it’s an easy mistake to make, especially when you’re starting out and want to secure any and all work going!)
– You might have more expenses to meet
– You might have too much work coming in, so as I mentioned in my last solo episode, you might want to – for want of a better word – sift out the lower paying clients.
– It might just be time for a pay-rise

Now, the last one sounds a bit arbitrary, but it isn’t. It’s important to remember that, when you’re self-employed, your career path can be a little harder to define. Whereas in a salaried position you might start out as a copy assistant, before moving on to junior copywriter, copywriter, senior copywriter and so on, as a freelancer, you’re just a copywriter. Forever.

But, as I’ve just hinted, that doesn’t mean that you actually stay the same. If you’re serious about your freelance copywriting career, you’ll be engaged in continuous training and development: reading, research, seminars, webinars, online training courses, offline training courses…there’s always something you can be doing to improve and expand the services you offer to clients. And, as you progress, it’s a reasonable thing for you to start commanding a higher fee from your clients. And that’s why I say it might just be time for a pay-rise.

But, the thought of increasing your fees can be a worrying one, particularly if you’re a copywriter who works with a range of regular, long-term clients.

The fear is always there – that the next pound or dollar you add to your fee could be the tipping point for a client, who’ll walk away and find someone else. And yes, if your client is looking for the cheapest deal, there might come a time when they decide that what you’re charging is too much for them. But, if you follow the tips I’m going to give you in this episode, you should be able to avoid that in most circumstances, at least, and start earning the kind of fees you deserve for your work.

50 British Pounds Sterling

50 British Pounds Sterling (Photo credit: deg.io)

So, first of all, make sure you’ve got a pricing strategy in place. As I say, you’ll need to listen to episode 23, which is Pip’s solo episode, if you’re not sure how to go about doing this. It’s one of my favourite episodes, genuinely, and it’s by the lovely Pip, who’s brilliant at breaking things down. She’s had training in delivering training, so she really is very good at breaking down what’s essentially quite a complicated topic. Have a listen: it really will help you if you’re stuck on how to decide what to charge for which services. The key point about a pricing strategy is that it’s not just a set of figures that you pluck out of the air. There are ways to determine how much you should be charging, so have a listen to episode 23 and come back here if you don’t know what they are!

So, the first tip I’d give you when you’re thinking about increasing your rates, be clear with your clients about how the increase will affect them

When you inform your clients that your fees are going up, it’s important to be clear with them. If you normally communicate with your client via telephone, give them a call and then follow up with an email, so it’s there – it’s a permanent record. If you normally email them, send them a message and then follow up with a call if necessary (so, it’s the other way round). Stick to your normal communication method, then follow up.
It’s important at this point to make the transition to a higher fee as easy, clear and justifiable as possible. You also need to let your client know that they’re valued by you, so think carefully about how you word your communications with them.

While I wouldn’t suggest walking your client through exactly why you’ve decided to charge what you’re charging, it’s important for you to outline clearly how it’s going to affect them, and what they’re going to get for their money. But, while you’re doing this – remember two things: one, be honest with them and two, don’t apologise.

As I’ve progressed as a freelance copywriter, my fees have increased. I ask far more from a new client now than I would have done ten years ago. And, while in retrospect I think that my fees from ten years ago were far too low (which is a very common thing!), there’s no way I should have been charging then what I’m charging now. My skills are hugely improved, my knowledge has increased, I have more years of experience and commitment behind me.

So, when it comes to my long-term clients, I value their loyalty and that has to stand for something. I’ve had a number of them on my books for years now, so I’m not about to charge them the same that I’d charge for a new commercial clients. I’m not going to increase the fees I charge them by a huge jump. However, there did come a point where I was charging one client considerably less than any of my other clients, and I had to increase my fees to make it worth my while keeping that client on, and dedicating a large amount of time every week to working for them.

So, I had to come up with a figure that would suit me but not price me out of my client’s reach, for loyalty’s sake. I sat down and considered all of the following:

– my client’s budget and sector
– how long I’d been working for them
– how many pay increases I’d had since working for them
– how many hours work I did (or indeed, do!) for the client each week
– how much more I could be earning if I did the same amount of work for another client each week
– why I deserved the pay increase

In the end, I came up with a logical, ultimately justifiable figure, and I set about emailing the client with a proposal. It’s important to do this in a professional way, even if you chat with the client on a daily basis.

 

In my email, I explained that, like any other business, I had a pricing strategy that allowed me to keep my business flourishing. There’s no shame in that: I look after my business. I reiterated how important the client was to me, and outlined the fact that I’d not increased my fees for around two years. I detailed some of the training I’d been undertaking and described how the pay increase would allow me to continue to deliver even better results to that client in future. The increase was included in the email as an easily digestible percentage figure, you know – increased by X% – and it wasn’t something overwhelmingly large.

I bullet-pointed all of the information and submitted it, topped and tailed with the same kind of friendly communication that my client’s come to expect from me on an almost daily basis.

The response came back and it was a positive one. No one’s going to cheer about having to pay more for something, but the price was considered fair for the work I deliver and the communication was appreciated. And that’s the result you’re looking for.

So, to sum up, when you decide to raise your fees, you need to be a number of things.
Firstly – clear. Clear with yourself and why you’re doing it. Clear in your own mind about why you’ve gone for that particular figure, or percentage increase. And clear with your clients about how it’ll affect them.

Secondly, be confident. Be confident in your services, and know in yourself that what you’re charging is the right amount. If you’re not sure about it, you’ll have a hard time convincing anyone else. Do your research, position yourself carefully in the market – find a nice middle ground between ridiculously high and ridiculously low! – and that will help you to feel confident that you’ve made the right choice, even if you lose some clients. Be confident when you’re informing clients old and new about your rates – you’ve got nothing to apologise for, and confidence helps you to be professional.

And thirdly, be consistent. Offer your clients consistently good value for what they’re paying. Offer them consistently good work. If a client can rely on you, that’s one more reason to pay you what you’re asking.

Also, be consistent in what you charge a particular client, and how and when you increase your fees with them. It might be that you charge different clients different amounts based on their spending capacity – I charge charities less than commercial clients, for example, and I know that Pip charges charities and students less – but be discreet about this (not secretive, just discreet!) and always keep a record of what you charged who, and when. Clients will know, realistically, that your rates might vary, but if you end up mixing clients up and getting your rates wrong, or trying to implement another fee increase after just six months because you’re mistaking one client for another, it will make you seem sneaky and underhand. So keep close tabs on your finances and on what you charge different people.

So, I hope this has been a helpful guide on how to go about increasing the fees you charge for your freelance writing services. We all want to make as much money for our time as possible – there’s no crime in that – but it’s good to really assess your actions so you can be sure that both you and your clients are getting the best deal possible.

As I mentioned in my previous episode, increasing your rates can actually be an effective way to cut down the number of low-paying clients you have – it might sound mercenary but it’s the nature of the beast. As your career progresses, you can’t afford to fill your working day with work for a client who pays you just a third or a quarter of what someone else could. It doesn’t make any sense. You need to let your clients find someone more affordable if you’re getting too expensive to them – the solution isn’t to keep your rates low forever. It’s not sustainable.
Increasing your rates will leaving your clients free to find someone more affordable – and to manage your time better. By freeing up some time and spend more of your working day focusing on the clients who can afford you, you can ultimately improve your offerings, cut out any rushed pieces of work, halve the stress, and spend more time on the training and development you’ll need to progress, in time, to a point where you’re able to attract and cater to even more highly paying clients. It’s a cyclic thing.

Before I go, it’s time for this week’s Little Bird Recommendation. I’ve been thoroughly told off by the ever-reliable Pip for repeatedly forgetting to include one in my solo episodes. So, this week, I’m being good – I’m making a concerted effort!

 

When introducing Little Bird Recommendations, Pip and I have said that we might share tools, videos, blog posts, or tweets. I realised I hadn’t yet featured a tweet. So, I noticed a tweet recently that was being retweeted a lot, and I really liked it. It was a tweet by someone called Michael Scott Monje Junior, and he wrote, “Look, I might be the odd man out here, but I think calling yourself a social media guru is the opposite of effective…” and it’s been retweeted and favourited left, right and centre.

 

I think it’s an interesting insight to effective and non-effective communications on social media. If you’re calling yourself a guru, for some people, that’s pretty obnoxious. Someone contacted me on Twitter and said, “Do you know what an anagram of social media guru is? A ludicrous image. Go figure!” And it’s true, we all know the types who frame themselves as social media experts – and they might well be, but when someone blows their own trumpet so hard, it’s hard to believe in them and to actually like them.

 

I think it’s really important – especially on social media, where the clue’s in the name – to be likeable. And it got me thinking about an article I saw on Copyblogger recently, called The Key To Creating More Remarkable Connections. Put aside the cheesy title, it’s actually a decent blog post – as most on Copyblogger are. The post talks about authenticity and goes through how to create a professional, authentic online persona. It has some great tips on balancing personal and professional stuff, how often to promote yourself and be salesy, and it basically outlines the content mix for you. I find it a really good guide actually, when I’m wondering whether to be more jokey, more professional, and how often to link people to my website.

So I hope that that recommendation is useful to you, and enough to appease the wonderful Pip, who quite rightly reminded me that I’d forgotten the Little Bird Recommendations over the last few solo episodes.

So, for more of our podcast episodes, including the two previous episodes on money matters, please do go and subscribe to the podcast. You can get regular updates via iTunes, Stitcher Smart Radio, RSS feed, or Facebook – or you can sign up on the podomatic page itself, at alittlebirdtoldme.podomatic.com.

I’ve been Lorrie Hartshorn – thanks so much for listening, as always, and Pip and I will catch you next time.

 

Podcast Episode 23: How to Decide What to Charge for your Freelance Writing Services

We ran out of storage space for our earliest episodes. But fear not, we have made these many, many hours of freelance writing goodness available for just £10. If you want access to them all, please click Add to Cart and buy through our e-junkie account for instant access.

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When starting out as a freelancer, negotiating the tricky world of how much to quote to potential clients can seem entirely bewildering and confusing. How do you pick a number? Do you charge per hour or per piece of work? And are the numbers you are quoting realistic?

Deciding what your hourly rate should be, how much to charge for a press release or a direct marketing package and how to avoid falling into the pitfalls of asking for too little are all discussed in this solo podcast episode.

There are several ways to make sure that you don’t miss out on A Little Bird Told Me.

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Transcript

Hello and welcome to episode 23 of A Little Bird Told Me: the podcast about the highs, the lows and the no-nos of successful self-employment.

I’m Philippa Willitts and today I’m going to be talking about how to decide what to charge as a freelance writer. This is solo episode, so I’m here without my usual co-host Lorrie, but we’ll be back with a dual episode next week.

Now, different people listen to this podcast in different ways. So, the best place to find us if you’re unsure is at alittlebirdtoldme.podomatic.com. That’s where you can find all the links to suvscribe via RSS, iTunes and Stitcher. You can also find a link to our Facebook page, as well as all of Lorrie’s and my websites and social media links. So do that, no matter where you’re listening to us right now, check us out in those other places to make sure you never miss another episode.

Sample invoice

Sample invoice (Photo credit: bjmccray)

I’m coming to you today from a very snowy city, which makes me incredibly happy to work from home. I don’t’ have to deal with all the cancelled buses, and slipping all over the place – it makes freelancing very enriching and rewarding on days like this! So, anyway, as I said, today I’ll be talking about how to decide what to charge. Setting your own rates when you’re starting out as a freelancer can be very confusing. I know I was so confused when I started: I didn’t know how to charge, what to charge, what was reasonable…I just had no idea. Luckily, I had some very well established freelance writers who helped me a lot.

I didn’t want to know their numbers: it didn’t matter so much to me what they charged. What confused me was the process: how did they get to that figure? And thankfully, like I say, some really helpful people explained it to me, so I’m going to go through the process with you today. And, actually, in two weeks’ time – in Lorrie’s solo episode – she’s going to be talking about how to increase your rates. But what I’m talking about today is how to set your rates initially.

So, the first stage in setting your prices is working out what you want to earn – and indeed, what you need to earn. There are two main ways of charging, which I’ll go into later, and that’s to charge hourly or by project. But whichever you choose, you have to start by working out how much you need to earn.

So, do you want to earn £200 a week? £500? £800? Choose something realistic, don’t underestimate – you’ve got to consider your bills, your expenses, all that kind of thing. So once you have a figure of how much you want to earn per work, you need to work out how many hours a week you want to work. After that, look at how many hours per week you need to spend doing non-chargeable work, so things like invoicing, admin, marketing, updating your website etc.

Then – and don’t worry, this episode isn’t all maths! –  minus this number from the number of hours you want to work as a whole, you will be left with the number of “writing hours” you have. You may want to work 40 hours a week, 15 of which will be spent doing non-chargeable work. Then, divide the amount you want to earn by this number of writing hours, and you have your hourly rate. If that sounded complicated, do rewind and listen again. Essentially you need the number of hours you can spend writing per week, and how much you want to earn per week. To make it a simple calculation, say you want to earn £200 a week and write for 10 hours, then your hourly rate is £20.

Now, some people prefer to do calculations by monthly or even annual earnings, but it follows the same pattern. If you work things out and you don’t feel confident about whether or not the rates you are charging are reasonable, do an online search for other freelancers and take a good look at their rates. If nothing else, you will reassure yourself with the fact that there are no “set” rates for anything! Some people seem to charge a fortune; others seem to charge virtually nothing. But looking at others’ rates, or indeed rates recommended by industry bodies or professional societies, can help you to work out whether your own rates are fair and reasonable. Having said that, don’t look at the rates writers charge on freelancing sites like Elance and freelancer.com. They will lead you to believe that you have to sell your soul and virtually pay other people to get work. It’s not unreasonable to want a decent hourly rate, but those kinds of sites will lead you to believe it is.

Money

Money (Photo credit: Tax Credits)

Some people like to set their rates just slightly below their peers’. So if everybody seems to be charging £50 for a particular piece of work, then charging £48 can actually put you at an advantage. There are a lot of clients who would go with you simply because you’re cheaper, even if it is by a very small amount. However there is also psychology at play here, and it can also have the opposite effect, with potential clients assuming that you charge less because you are less talented or capable.

When I first started out, a very well established freelance copywriter very kindly gave me some much-appreciated advice. One of the things she told me was that for big corporate clients, those with massive businesses, you should actually consider upping your rates a bit. Not, as I initially thought, because they could afford it, but in fact because if you approach them with very low rates then they won’t take you seriously, and they won’t think you are any good at your job.

So pitching your price exactly can be a tricky business, and it might be that you change your rates when you are getting established, over time, as you get more of an idea of how it all works, and that is completely fine.
So, it’s now time to look at the different options you have for charging. There are two main ways to price your work, and they are to charge hourly, or to charge per project. First, I’m going to look at charging hourly. Now, this isn’t how I work – but Lorrie, my usual co-host, tends to work with hourly charges, so the first thing I did was to ask her why – and what the benefits were.

First of all, she works with some agencies and they charge by the day so for her, it’s easy to calculate the fees she needs to charge with an hourly rate rather than a project one. She also says, “I find that, say, a press release or news story can vary in terms of length, research etc. so I prefer to charge exactly what it cost me out of my day. If it took less time, I genuinely do charge less so, over time, clients get to see the give and take from this, and it builds trust.”

Finally, she says, “I do a lot of training and development, and I try to keep my skills polished. No matter what they’re hiring me to do, or write, or edit, they’re still hiring me, so my rate remains the same.”

So that was Lorrie on why she prefers hourly charging. So let’s look more deeply at hourly charging. Now, one benefit of hourly charging is that you’re kept safe from a project suddenly taking a lot longer than you expect.

If you get commissioned to do a normal blog post but it turns out to need several interviews and lots of hours of research, you’re safe in the knowledge that you’ll be paid for all the work you do. The risk with that, though, is that, as you become better at your job and more adept at what you’re doing, you actually risk being paid less and less over time for the same work. Because, if when you start, a blog post takes you two hours, but you only need 45 minutes once you know that client better, you’re doing the same or better work but getting charged less.

Going back to the benefits, it’s also good if you’re new to freelancing, and you don’t know how long certain jobs are likely to take you. You might have experience writing articles and blog posts, for example, but if you get asked for a case study and you’ve never done one before, it’s really hard to work out a “per project” fee when you don’t know if it will take you 20 minutes or four hours. So, charging hourly does offer safeguards for a freelancer.

However, I choose to charge by project. The way I work out what to charge per project is to go back to that initial calculation of what I want to earn for an hour’s work, then work out (as best I can) how long different pieces of work are likely to take. So, if writing a press release would take me three hours, then it would be three times my hourly rate. If something else takes me half an hour, then that’s half my hourly rate. I find that clients often feel reassured because they know they are not going to get an unexpectedly large bill – it feels kind of like asking that client to write a blank cheque if you say, “Yes, I’ll do this work for you, and you pay whatever I charge you in the end.” They tend to want to know in advance how much they’ll be paying.

Cash

Cash (Photo credit: BlatantWorld.com)

Now, the way you work this out might vary. You might set a price per 500 or 1000 words of writing, or proof-reading. For instance, I have a set fee for 1000 words of proof-reading. I have a set fee for a 500 word blog post. That kind of thing. You also might charge per item – which might be per press release, per website rewrite, per case study etc. I have a mixture: I have press release and case study fees, and I also have number-of-words fees for website copy and things like that.

You do have to be a bit more careful, when charging per project, to make sure you have ALL the details of what is going to be involved – how much research, will you need to conduct interviews, how big will the end product be, is the topic familiar to you, will you need to collaborate with others, such as designers, SEO people? That adds a lot of time. If a client comes to you with a big project, they’re all things you need to be able to work out in advance so you can come up with a quote about how much it’ll probably cost.

Another thing about charging per project is that some people offer packages: a set price for, say, eight blog posts per month, or a set fee for a press release and case study on the same topic. This is a good way to expand the work you get, give you experience in wider areas, and persuade clients to order more than they might have originally intended! Not in a sly, exploitative way, but they might see the benefit – like, “Oh, a case study to go with that press release would be great – we could put it on our website and in our annual report.”

So, that’s why I charge per project. I feel clearer knowing exactly what I’m getting; it makes quotes easier; it reassures clients that they’re not going to get a massive invoice, and we all know where we are. However, as Lorrie explained, she much prefers to charge hourly in general. So, it all really, really depends on what you feel comfortable with, what your clients react well to. Perhaps even try a bit of both when you start out, and see which you prefer.

When looking at how to set your fees overall, I can’t stress enough how important it is to factor in self-employment related costs, because – unlike in salaried work –  you’re not being paid for admin time, holidays, equipment etc.  Also, if you’re in the States or other countries you will want to factor in things like health insurance. So make sure they’re included in your original calculations. Other things to bear in mind is that you are entitled to charge extra for rush work. You might want to add 50% to your fee, or whatever suits you – again, I’m not giving you numbers, but more how you go about coming to figures that suit you.

As long as it’s agreed in advance, you can also charge more for late payments. It’s also important, when talking to new clients, to be clear how many revisions are allowed, and how extra revisions will be charged.  A lot of people include one or two – if the client wants more, if you’ve agreed in advance that they’ll be charged at a certain rate, you won’t find yourself being taken advantage of by a client on their sixth revision because you didn’t specify in the first place.

Also, if you have a very specialist subject, you may find you can charge more for specialised work that few people could do.

Even if it’s not specialist work, don’t ever undervalue your talents and your skills.  Stick to your guns. Don’t be bullied or persuaded into reducing your rates, especially on spurious promises like, “Oh, if you do this, we can bring you a lot more work”. That very rarely happens, but even if it does, they’ll probably argue with you about price again. Extra work isn’t in your interest if it’s all at a very low rate.

You might decide to lower your rates for, say, non-profits, but if actually the majority of your clients are non-profits then this becomes unsustainable. If you want to, then do offer discount or mates’ rates if you really want to, but don’t feel obliged to. Particularly, don’t feel obliged to take on, say, more than one “mates’ rates” project at a time. I reduce my fees for non-profits, and on proof-reading for students. But, if I found that the majority of my income was based on proof-reading for students, that would be unsustainable, so be careful.

So, I hope that’s answered a few of your questions about how to set you rates for freelance writing. Whether you go with hourly rates, project rates or do different ones for each project, the important thing is to go with one that works well for you. A system that’s easy for you, so if someone contacts you wanting a quote, you can respond pretty quickly. But also, one that’s fair to you – don’t offer stupidly low prices to get work and end up not being able to pay your bills at the end of the month.

Let us know what you think. Pop over to our Facebook page, contact us on social media. All the links are at alittlebirdtoldme.podomatic.com. We love to hear from you – we know we’ve got some brilliant listeners all over the world and we love to get your feedback. So I hope that’s been helpful! I’ve been Philippa Willitts, and I look forward to seeing you next time!